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Help Please

Having worked for HSE as part of my career, my team and I wrote the Gas Installation and Use regulations which brought about CORGI. You have HSE to thank for saving your life by no longer allowing dodgy gas installers and the removal of unsafe appliances in homes. HSE's work has undoubtedly saved lives. But yes, I too feel cynical at times about how far it's gone. Nevertheless I think I'd rather have that than a death which could have been avoided. Viv.
 
Dodgy ladder use in Aston... wrong angle to the wall
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More dodgy ladder use in Aston ... he is up in the top left hand corner.
Victoria_rd_Baths.jpg
 
I have no head for heights whatsoever, a situation made worse by age and Varifocals. oM's post #13 'made my legs go funny' just looking at the photo.
 
Having worked for HSE as part of my career, my team and I wrote the Gas Installation and Use regulations which brought about CORGI. You have HSE to thank for saving your life by no longer allowing dodgy gas installers and the removal of unsafe appliances in homes. HSE's work has undoubtedly saved lives. But yes, I too feel cynical at times about how far it's gone. Nevertheless I think I'd rather have that than a death which could have been avoided. Viv.
Of course CORGI is now no more and the qualifications are now harder than under CORGI. In a lot of ways we do have HSE and HASAW to thank for making the country a safer place, for instance Working at Heights was once considered to be anything over 6 feet high, now it is any height that could cause injury if you fall, witness lorries with pole and chain protection on the flat bed. The problem is it has been moved from the workplace to life in general, ie hanging baskets, signs outside shops etc. I go back to my days at Cannings in the early sixties and the tales of platers hanging over the Trichlorithylene Tanks and as for the black hole at Fort Dunlop!!!! Thank for your help, all these pictures are proving to be a very strong then and now test. Of course there are those pictures of window cleaners, two/three floors up sitting on the window ledge with th sash holding his legs #12. And I bet that person would also travel by tram and take their life in their hands waiting to get off and the walking across the road to the pavement.
Bob
 
I'm enjoying the dodgy ladder pics. More please. It's often surprised me how many images/postcards have a dodgy ladder. Men must have spent a lot of time up ladders. (Oh, and of course, the occasional female). Viv.
 
Does Health and Safety sometimes get the blame for what really is the litigation culture of today? An example being the ridiculous ban on playground conkers.
 
Does Health and Safety sometimes get the blame for what really is the litigation culture of today? An example being the ridiculous ban on playground conkers.

Well I certainly feel that this is one of the problems. People often misquote heath and safety as saying we cannot do or due to health and safety reasons don’t etc.
 
Pedro,

You could well be correct, staff no doubt being told to void any action that could possibly result in an insurance claim! But I can't prove this, of course. But back to HSE, the first time I went to Spain (Alicante) in 1969, I was amazed to see building workers working four or five storeys up on scaffolding merely comprising bamboo poles roped together, about the dimensions of those you find in the centre of a roll of carpet.

36 years on I was standing in a queue next to an Albanian with his arm in plaster at a government office in Crete. "What happened to you?", I asked him. The reply was "I fell off a building". :)

Maurice
 
Pedro,

You could well be correct, staff no doubt being told to void any action that could possibly result in an insurance claim! But I can't prove this, of course. But back to HSE, the first time I went to Spain (Alicante) in 1969, I was amazed to see building workers working four or five storeys up on scaffolding merely comprising bamboo poles roped together, about the dimensions of those you find in the centre of a roll of carpet.

36 years on I was standing in a queue next to an Albanian with his arm in plaster at a government office in Crete. "What happened to you?", I asked him. The reply was "I fell off a building". :)

Maurice
I have seen men working on that type of scaffolding, in Portugal, as late as 2000.

I suppose you only have to see the number of compensation related firms that aggressively seek out business, not only by television adverts, but by phone calls.
 
Pedro,

You could well be correct, staff no doubt being told to void any action that could possibly result in an insurance claim! But I can't prove this, of course. But back to HSE, the first time I went to Spain (Alicante) in 1969, I was amazed to see building workers working four or five storeys up on scaffolding merely comprising bamboo poles roped together, about the dimensions of those you find in the centre of a roll of carpet.

36 years on I was standing in a queue next to an Albanian with his arm in plaster at a government office in Crete. "What happened to you?", I asked him. The reply was "I fell off a building". :)

Maurice

It wasn't so long ago that we were using the same type of scaffold, the uprights were long wooden poles stuck in barrels of sand or soil and the cross members were also wooden poles and this was all tied together with rope.

Ladywood King Alfred Place.jpg
 
Pedro You have hit the nail on the head. This is why everything to day is belt and braces - take COSSH - The control of substances hazardous to health. Any liquid, solid or powdered material whether it can cause injury/death or not has to be corded in a special legder and quantified as to risk - Low, Medium or High and have full details of how it should be dealt with in the case of accidental contact - full risk assessment and method statement.......
and so shall the snowflakes and litigants prosper
Morturn, I don't think they misquote, I think they use it as a threat, as a bargaining tool and sometimes as a reason not to carry out a task.
Sospiri, Hong Kong as well with raffia like binding to keep it together.
Phil You mean to say that I can no longer put up scaffolding this - next you'll be telling me I have to have a special card and training to be a scaffolder.
The problem often stems from the jobsworths who have to make a fuss to justify their taxpayer (council or national) funded existence.
Bob
 
For over fifteen years I was an unpaid volunteer on a 'heritage' railway.
With the advent of more H&S and insurance clauses it became less of an enjoyment; more of a job. Restrictions with areas where we could go on the railway, coupled with the need to clock in on a machine (which is something I have never done) instead of a simple signature and time made me realize that this was no longer going to be the enjoyable experience I had known - so I decided to walk away.
 
Bob

My problem with the HSE (as it was in my day) is that it sent many small business to the wall, because they couldn't afford the extra money it took to keep in line with new legistlation because back then if you tried to pass on extra costs to your client you didn't get the contract.

Now they have just about covered everything they are still looking for meaningless changes to justify their existance.
 
Bob
You are very right about chemicals. I have mentioned before, though not aure if it was on this forum, the example of an early edition of Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial materials.Each chemical included was given a code as to how a spillage should be treated. for relatively harmless substances the recommendation was to wash downsurface with water. the only thing was that , for some reason, presumably a desire to be complete, water was included. so the recommendation if there was a water spillage was to "wash down surface with water"
 
Bob

My problem with the HSE (as it was in my day) is that it sent many small business to the wall, because they couldn't afford the extra money it took to keep in line with new legistlation because back then if you tried to pass on extra costs to your client you didn't get the contract.

Now they have just about covered everything they are still looking for meaningless changes to justify their existance.

Have we an example of a firm that was forced out of business due to its inability to conform to a health and safety recommendation?

The Health and Safety Executive does not have to justify its existence. The Act of 1974 was the culmination of well over a hundred years of titanic struggle by the working class.

One of the best examples of the struggle is in the coal mining industry. In 1850 the government set up the Mines Inspectorate due to pressure from many areas of society. It was a token effort, it was underfunded, and yet it gradually improved the shocking conditions men had to work in.

Move to 1913 and the worst ever British mining disaster at Senghenydd where 439 miners were killed. It had been 12 years since 81 miners had been killed there. There company had ignored recommendations by the Inspectorate. The manager was fined 24 quid and the Company 10 quid, and the owner Sir William Lewis got off Scot free. The cost of each miner’s life was valued as 5.5 pence.

Move to 2017 and it can already be seen that a multitude of Health and Safety recommendations have been ignored in fire and building regulations at Grenfell Tower.
 
For over fifteen years I was an unpaid volunteer on a 'heritage' railway.
With the advent of more H&S and insurance clauses it became less of an enjoyment; more of a job. Restrictions with areas where we could go on the railway, coupled with the need to clock in on a machine (which is something I have never done) instead of a simple signature and time made me realize that this was no longer going to be the enjoyable experience I had known - so I decided to walk away.

Sorry you feel that way and a shame that it got to that stage.

I've heard many stories of where there are both 'employed' and 'volunteer' staff where the volunteer has been told, "You can't do that. That's [name of employee]'s job." In some ways I can understand that. The employee is there to earn an income. If a volunteer turns up and completes a job to an equal [or better] standard, then the income of the employee comes into jeopardy.

The Heritage railway where I volunteer is almost entirely volunteer workforce. Whilst the HofD and Dep HofD (C&W) are essentially retired 'desk jockeys', we still take H&S seriously.

It just means that the trained/qualified Engineers are allowed to get on with what they do best because the Managerial staff don't have the skills/knowledge to dictate otherwise.:)
 
I do have other unpaid work to do each day Ken besides the railroad which was only twice a week.
A few years ago, after scandals, it became necessary for anyone dealing with children or elderly people needed vetting. Like much legislation it can be interpreted a little more excessive than intended. It is only when it becomes a matter for the courts to decide is a definitive interpretation usually given.
On a lighter note when I was informed, by someone in an office, whom I did not know and who was some distance from my location - i.e. in another town - that it was necessary to have this vetting in order to protect old, vulnerable people. I tried not to laugh too loud and pointed out that most people I visited were, in fact, younger than me and it was me that could be the old, vulnerable person.
I accept the need for many restrictions in today's world, but I also note that in many instances it can become a question of simply 'ticking the boxes'.
 
Pedrocut

I certainly wasn't intimating all of the ideas advanced by the HSE were a bad thing but I knew a couple of small businesses that went bust, it might have the last straw that broke the camels back. Another friend of mine had to let one of his labour force go to keep solvent.

The thing is I took on the job of safety officer myself after attending all the appropriate lectures and courses and this was in addition to all the additional paperwork that was generated. (have you ever tried writing a method statement for a demolition contract) each job is different and required a statement tailored to that specific job, but this is how we saved money. The annoying thing was whilst I realise that the construction industry is one of the most dangerous industries I never learned anything new on any of the courses that I attended and I have to add in over 35 years we never had any accident other than cuts and grazes on any of our sites.
 
Phil,

Your last sentence says it all. We're just raising generations of idiots with their heads stuck in iPads and tunnel vision without the ability to think logically. Hence, the warnings on packets of peanuts such as "May contain nuts". Unless they have EVERY possible option put into print, they assume that they can do it. Such as the American woman who washed her pet poodle and put it in the microwave to dry, then sued the makers when the dog died saying that the instructions didn't say she couldn't. Apparently in this age of stupid litigation she won her case.

I could go on and on. A generation of drivers with the inability to read a map who drive large vehicles down narrow alleyways and get stuck just because satnav says they should.. And these people want the vote at the the age of 16? Goodness help us!!!

PS And some of the people who make these laws are not much brighter!

Maurice :)
 
Gosh, what fun I asked a simple question about a ladder picture and the brothers and sisters of the BHF came together to provide not only the pictures, thus helping me put together a very interesting safety course, but also it developed into a most interesting discussion on Health and Safety. One aside, I used the picture of the window cleaner three floors up and yes the answer to my question as to what was wrong with the picture was.....'somebody took the ladder away'. When I explained about sash windows etc, etc, there was complete puzzlement.
Phil I started in Construction in the early sixties, you know the days when the Clerk of the Works seemed to have all the power and had to be feared, but you could put antifreeze in the mortar mix when the temperature was minus five and they all wore 'wellies' while standing in a concrete pour...the early days of ready mix and concrete on tap. I saw the damage that was done to small firms as they struggled to meet the requirements of HASAW and I also knew a number who went under or had to close down, and having worked closely with a number of Demo firms I sympathise with you having to prepare RAMS. Nowadays it is all CADs using generic plans. The other thing today is you cannot get on site without a ticket. Every entry in these posts makes a relevant point and I suppose Maurice sums it up beautifully, with computers and Satnavs, there is no longer a need for anyone to think for themselves it is all done for them.
Talking of ladders, do you remember those little ones with the pointed tops that the gas light men used to carry, now they would need a cherry picker

Bob
 
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