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Finding divorce decree/record

S

Snowball

master brummie
Can anyone please advise me on how to obtain details of divorce proceedings. I know the names of the parties concerned but I would like to know the dates that applied. This divorce is comparatively recent, best guess about 1965. Any advice ?
 
Hi Snowball

A few years ago I got information about a divorce from

The Principal Registry of The Family Division
First Avenue House
42-49 High Holborn
London WC1V 6NP

Tel: 020 7947 7016/7017
Fax: 020 7947 6995

They sent me a form to fill in and to send back with the fee, which in this case was about £25.

Divorces are listed under the National Archives at Department Code J.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp?j=1
but I am not sure what years they go up to.

Judy
 
My great-grandmother married a man by the name of Brinkworth in 1894; I have a copy of the marriage certificate (St. Thomas parish). There were two children born to them through 1896 (one in St. Martin, the other in Aston); I have copies of their birth certificates also. She was pregnant when they married. Brinkworth was listed as a plumber on the marriage certificate, but then as a sailor with the merchant service on the two childrens’ birth certificates.

By 1898 she had remarried a fellow by the name of Herbert. He is listed as the father of a child born that year, and another in 1900, and she is listed as his wife both in the 1901 census, and on his death certificate the same year. I have not been able to locate a marriage certificate or date for them yet.

I have read that divorce at that time was both very unusual and difficult to obtain, and that about the only means by which a woman could successfully get one was on the grounds of desertion.

I strongly suspect that Brinkworth married my gr-grandmother because she was expecting, and that he joined the merchant service to leave, with no intentions of coming back. I think she possibly was able to get a divorce on desertion.

Is it possible to find records of divorce decrees – and if so, where would I look? (Living in the U.S., I would have to do my searching either on the Internet or via the postal system.) If I can find a divorce decree or date, that might help me in tracking down her marriage to Herbert.



Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.


Ann Steiner
 
There is always the possibility of no divorce Ann, nor marriage to the second partner sadly, If the lady had been deserted with children it is always possible with her new partner they just set up as a married couple and carried on living with each other without ever marrying.
 
Thank you for the suggestion Bordesley -- I'll give that a try. I was reading some similar posts on another forum, and from what was being discussed, apparently back in those days it was very common for people to just "marry" again in name and not bother with a divorce from the first spouse at all. This may be turn out to be the case with my Gr-grandmother, since I've not been able to find a marriage certificate for the second "husband".

Ann
 
Yes, Ann I too hear that people were cavalier about arranging divorce!
You might find the National Archives site useful for other research, such as WW1, wills & even locations etc. Some records can be accessed online for a modest payment. The bookshop prices are uncompetetive, but worth a look for titles. My Ancestor was a b------ gives family law detail.
 
Mike,

No, I've not been able to find her in the 1911 census. At least not doing a free search (I don't have access to the 1911 returns).

I've done a search for her under Herbert, as well as under Gardner -- she "married" a fellow by that name after Mr. Herbert died in 1901. Although she had three more children by him, I don't know if she and Mr. Gardner actually got married or not (I've not been able to find a marriage certificate for them either), and if they did, when.

Ann
 
Bordseley,

I just tried a basic search on the Findmypast link that you incuded, using both Herbert and Gardner last names for my gr-grandmother. Nothing came up. But ironically I also looked to see if it would bring up her husband Herbert in the 1901 census and that showed zero results as well. I know for a fact that both of my Herbert gr-grandparents are on the 1901 census, because I found them in a search through Ancestry.com. So I'm not sure what the story is there. Maybe Ancestry will include the 1911 census at some point and I'll have better luck with a search through their site.

Thank you for the suggestion and the link though!

Best,
Ann
 
Ladylinda,

Unfortunately the only one I have detailed data on is my gr-grandmother. I'm hoping that I'll be able to learn more about her third "husband", Mr. Gardner, by maybe finding her/them in the census.

This is what I can furnish you:

Her Christian name is Martha Jane. In 1901 she became the widow of Alfred Herbert. She was born in Birmingham in September 1872, which would make her I guess about 38 years old on the census? She lived in Birmingham and had a son, Charles Leslie Herbert, born in 1900, who probably would have been living with her.

I don't know anything about this fellow Gardner that she married next (if she did) other than his last name. She had three sons by him: George, Samuel, and Arthur, but I don't know any of their birth-dates yet.

I thank you for the offer to give a look-up, and if you're able to locate her/them, it would be super!

Best,
Ann
 
Is this them?
1911 census
GARDINER, Arthur Husband Married aged 36 born 1875 Labourer General Wocestershire
GARDINER, Martha J Wife aged 36 born 1875 Birmingham
GARDINER, George Son aged 3 born 1908 Birmingham
GARDINER, Sam Son aged 2 born1909 Birmingham
GARDINER, Arthur Son aged 1 born 1910 Birmingham
Married 4 years living 2 B 25 Conybere St Birmingham
 
Oh and they had 4 rooms in the property and he worked for Birmingham Corporation. Martha stated she had 3 children,all living.
 
Hi there, these may be George and Arthur,can't find Sam,yet.
Arthur Gardiner
Year of Registration: 1910, Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Aston (1837-1924), County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d, Page: 365

Name: George Albert Gardiner
Year of Registration: 1908, Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Aston (1837-1924), County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d, Page: 253
 
1901 census
Herbert Martha Jane 28 Wife born Birmingham, -
Herbert Alfred 4 Son born Birmingham, -
Herbert Howard 2 Son born Birmingham,
Herbert Charles 7 Months Son born Birmingham,
Harris Susanna 54 Aunt Seamstress Shirt born Birmingham,
All living 3/287 Highgate Road, Deritend
Martha is down as "wife",but "husband" must have been elsewhere that night!
 
This looks like Charles and Howard,but I can't find Alfred,unless he was born out of Birmingham :(
Charles Leslie Herbert
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Kings Norton (To 1912)
County: Staffordshire, Warwickshire, Worcestershire
Volume: 6c
Page: 385
Howard Herbert
Year of Registration: 1898
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Aston (1837-1924)
County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 229
 
Ladylinda,

Oh bless your heart!! I was just beginning to think this morning I should hang Martha up as my token "brick wall".

Yes, that is her on the 1911 census! And I've been searching with the wrong spelling for Gardiner all this time too. She's apparently disposed of poor little Charlie from her marriage to Herbert somewhere (the other two boys she packed off to the Middlemore Home, and they were sent off to Canada in 1904). And she's shaved off some years -- she was actually born in 1872, not 1875.

And you found the birthdates for Arthur and George too!

For the 1901 census, her husband, Alfred Herbert, was in the city hospital, ill with typhoid fever -- he died shortly after the census was taken.

Her son Alfred, born from that husband, came along before they actually got married, and his birth is registered under her previous married name, Brinkworth. She very cleverly gave him the middle name of "Herbert" though, and then when she married his father, she dropped his surname Brinkworth. She seems a bit of a devious sort!

Thank you SO much for all the time and effort you put into searching for me. You've helped solve a mystery I've been working on for a long time.

Best,
Ann
 
Do you know what happened to Martha & Arthur Gardiner after 1911, Ann? The Midlands Historical Data search engine could not find them on a 1920-1950 electoral search under Birmingham or on an address search under 25 Conybere.
If you search on BHF under Conybere you should find pictures however.
 
No, I don't Bordesley -- the whole period of her life after Alfred Herbert died is a mystery. All I knew was that she had married someone named Gardiner and had the three sons. And that Gardiner died at some point and she possibly married again. ??? But I have no idea when she herself died, or where. I'm pretty sure that she was still living on Conybere Street in the 1930's, as a cousin born in 1930, who still lives in the Birmingham area, remembers going to visit her there with her mother, when she was a small girl.

Thank you for looking to see if you could find anything on them in the Midlands site. I appreciate you taking the time to do that for me. It's mind-boggling to me how some people can just sort of disappear. You know they existed somewhere at a period in time, but can't find any trace of what happened to them.

I'll look to see what pictures of Conybere St. might be in the BHF archives. Thanks again!

Best,
Ann
 
There was an Arthur Gardiner who died age 47 Q2 1923 Kings Norton 6d 63 (I believe Conybere would come under Kings Norton registration district).
I could not find Martha's next marriage, but it is unclear what surname she would have used. One way to deal with this would be to ask on a new thread for a search on BHF in a Kellys directory dated 1933 to determine her address & then in a later Kellys or on Midlands Historical Data carry out an address search as Martha might have stayed in that house & her new surname could be discovered.
The difficulty is that there is a significant gap in the availability of Kellys.
 
Bordesley,

Thank you for the additional suggestions. If Martha did marry again, the fellow's name was Smith. (A family history researcher's worst nightmare -- har.)

I'll give the membership a break for a bit and then try asking for a Kelly Directory look-up in a new thread to see if her address can be determined.

The death registration for Arthur Gardiner you found could very well be her husband -- the age is in the right time-frame. I'll check into that further as well. I would love to be able to find one or both of the two daughters who were born to one of Martha's Gardiner sons someday, if possible.

Thanks again for all your help.

Best,
Ann
 
1920 Electoral Roll
Gardener, Arthur
Gardener, Martha Jane back 25 Conybere Street
1925 Electoral Roll
Gardener, Martha Jane 2 back 25 Conybere Street.
Herbert, Charles Leslie 2 back 25 Conybere Street.

Charles L Herbert married Alice E Fitzpatrick
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1926
Registration district: Birmingham South
Registration county (inferred): West Midlands
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 576

1930 Electoral Roll
Herbert, Charles Leslie 5 court 6 Angelina Street (St Martins and Deritend Ward) Living with in-laws!
Herbert, Alice Elizabeth 5 court 6 (St Martins and Deritend Ward)
Fitzpatrick, Francis 5 court 6 (St Martins and Deritend Ward)
Fitzpatrick, Alice Elizabeth 5 court 6 (St Martins and Deritend Ward)
1935 & 1939 Electoral Roll
Herbert, Charles Leslie 130 Daisy Farm Rd
Herbert, Alice Elizabeth 130 Daisy Farm Rd
 
Found these 2 possible Charles and Alice offspring
Maurice P Herbert
Mother's Maiden Surname: Fitzpatrick
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1927
Registration district: Birmingham S.
Registration county: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 296
Iris J Herbert
Mother's Maiden Surname: Fitzpatrick
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1930
Registration district: Birmingham S
Registration county: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 313
This came up while I was having a quick look at the births.No Christian name given.
Herbert
Mother's Maiden Surname: Herbert
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1925
Registration district: Birmingham S
Registration county: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 238
 
Hi, found the following marriage and although it's not in Birmingham,it's a possibility?
Name: Martha Herbert
Spouse : Alfred Smith
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1928
Registration district: Southwark
Registration county (inferred): Surrey
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 226

Had another look at Electoral Rolls and found the following:
1935@ 7 Moseley Place,Conybere St:
Martha Jane Smith
George Albert Gardner
Arthur Gardner
1939@ 40 Conybere St:
Alfred Smith
Oscar George Crocker
1939@ 7 Moseley Place,Conybere St:
Martha Jane Smith
1939@ 8 Moseley Place,Conybere St:
Samuel Gardner
Doris Jane Gardner

Then had a quick check on the deaths between 1939-1944 and found the following-no middle name,but age about right?
Martha Smith
1941 3rd Q (July,Aug,Sept)
Birmingham vol 6d page 477
age at death,69
It'll either help or hinder!!
 
Good gracious but my gr-grandmother was a busy woman! Four "husbands" and possibly 8 children??!!

Thank you Bordesley and Ladylinda both for furnishing me with more much needed information. I now have a time-frame for when #4 entered the picture, the fact that there was possibly another child born (unless it was Smith's from a previous relationship), a daughter-in-law's name, three different spellings for Gardener/Gardiner/Gardner, and the death registration that you found Ladylinda could very well be Martha's. (I've written the cousins to see if they can possibly recall what year she might have died.)

I don't understand why I can't find these things. Just for the heck of it, I looked at Findmypast's 1911 census free look-up page, using the information that you furnished me with earlier Ladylinda, when you found her in the census return, and it came back with "zero" results. I've done Ancestry searches using Martha Jane and Arthur Gardner (all the various spellings) and come up blank. I've not looked through the Midlands Historical Data site yet though, and will take a look to see what sort of information they have, for future reference.

A big thank you again, to both of you! Thanks to you I've found out more about my gr-grandmother in the past couple days than I have in years of previous searching.

Best,
Ann
 
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