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Disappearing Trades

F

Frantic

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Just reading Cromwell's comments on another thread prompted me to ponder the demise of "The Trades" as we know them. As a Toolmaker, I served a six year apprenticeship, and then another four years as an "Improver" before I got the top rate. How many young people these days are prepared to work for 10 years on low pay in order to learn a trade. Not many. We are mostly "Old Farts" on this forum and understand the relevance of skilled trades-people in society, but what is going to happen when we have all retired or fallen off our perches. Who will be there to teach future tradespeople, even if you could find someone who wanted to learn a trade. Now; we have young people with a pneumatic nail gun in one hand and a piece of 'four-by-two' in the other and call themselves carpenters. Ask any of them to make you a 'mortice and tennon' joint, or a 'dovetail joint', and they won't have a clue. Not because they are incapable, but because they haven't been taught the skills. Another skill that is teetering on the edge of extinction is Sheep-shearing. Who, in their right mind, wants to stand all day doubled over, and in the certain knowledge that in a few years, they will have permanent back problems. Many have tried to mechanise the process, but none have succeeded commercially so far.
But sheep will still grow wool.
We, as manufacturing nations, are too reliant on getting our products from China or Korea or India, because it's cheaper and more convenient. But consider what is going to happen to our industries in the future (not too distant). America has sold most of it's machines and tooling, and now 'outsources' most of it's products offshore, as does Britain and a lot of other manufacturing nations. Consequently, there is no need to train skilled people, and industry as we know it will eventually die out. Here in Australia, there are,I believe, only two clothing manufacturers left in the whole country, and THEY can't compete with the imported product. When they eventually close down, as inevitably, they will. How can those businesses be re-kindled when the Chinese start to raise their prices. who will be there to compete? No-one, because all of the tradespeople will have moved on.
Consider: Who would want to be a teacher today, with some of the mindless thugs that they are faced with every day? Who wants to be a policeman, when there is no respect for the law? Who wants to be a nurse when you can be beaten up by some deranged drug addict or drunk? Who wants to be a bricklayer when your fingers split in the cold and you put down one brick after another, day after day. Year after year....................Who is going to MAKE things, or FIX things in the future when our generation is being discussed on the Birmingham History Forum.
 
I can only wonder myself about the things you have laid out in your post, Frantic. In a nutshell the situation as it is now is pretty much as you have mentioned and is the same in Canada where a few years ago the Government cancelled so many of the trade apprenticeship programmes partly financed by them. Somehow they "dropped the ball". Now there is a shortage of construction workers in particular since there is a building boom here never before seen and there is a push on to go into schools to encourage students into the Trades. At present here in Vancouver they are starting to build the venues for the 2010 Winter Olympics. A reporter went to visit the first venue to be started the other day and she noticed that all the workers were very young for one thing not a lot of experience there I would say.

In Birmingham so many companies have left or merged with other companies and have their goods manufactured offshore. Seemingly, much thought has not been given to your questions Frantic. People come and go in all types of jobs these days and I know we will never see those jobs being filled by people who will put 40 years of their lives into them.

Yes, people won't want to go into those professions that you mention, such as police force, teaching, nursing and others due the unsafe working conditions. Some big changes have to come about to change all this but I honestly don't have too many good ideas and if I did who would listen to them. The bottom line is money pure and simple. I wish it weren't so.
 
There was a time when all boys were taught woodwork at school and all would know how to make a mortise and tennon joint. Many would not end up doing woodwork for a living but could turn their hand to it if or when required. Does not seem to be important any more; being able to make a strong joint with a chisel and some glue and a hand saw. The concept of making something however was learned from this. In those days secondary schools were mostly segregated and girls would learn different life skills. That's how it was then at school rightly or wrongly. I noticed in the newspaper the other day an article stating shortages in Canada of technical workers, craftsmen, engineers. I am not sure why this is as it seems to me that technical colleges are churning them out at a high rate. There are not enough engineering jobs here for the people trained in Canadian schools. If you look on the internet, Workopolis you would think that there were lots of jobs until you happen to notice that it is countless agencies all advertising the same set of positions in the same company. Probably those positions are not available any more either. They just want to make a contact half the time. If the civil service immigration department use this advertising as data for immigration requirements they would be way off the mark. I suspect they do and they end up with more taxi drivers.
I wondered if 2x4s were used in Australia. I thought the building that you posted had roll-formed metal studs. It's the service industries that have the labour requirement now in the 'previously industrialised countries' and since the ranks of retirees are going to swell considerably over the next few years, cheap goods are going to be required to match reduced incomes. Where it is all going to lead to is not known. I presume that the intelligentsia have a handle on it. Don't count on it.
 
Frank,

First of all I'd like to thank you for making my day with such a cheery post. :-\

As it happens, I've just sent an email of complaint to the BBC over their Midlands Today programme. They've had a mini series on all week applauding the building of Rover cars in China by workers earning a tenth of what the Longbridge workers got when they had jobs.

I think the situation is something that concerns us all. When I was in engineering we were led to believe that no country could flourish without a manufacturing base to produce exports. Exports over imports was the key formula. Then in the Eighties this was turned on it's head. Blue collar workers were suddenly the scum of the earth - shoving papers round the City stock exchanges was the way to go. It was then that the new generation were encouraged to sit behind computers, do media studies (whatever that is), or psychology (whatever that's worth).

In the UK today we are reliant on imported coal, imported gas, imported steel (for the little we still make) and, because of the lack of vocational training, imported Poles to do the skilled jobs that are left.

I s'pose it's wrong to say there is no vocational training now. An electrician friend had an apprentice who graduated from one of the new courses and didn't know which way to turn a screw to loosen it. My wife interviewed a candidate for secretarial work who had 37 qualified with 37 skills from college.Some samples included: Answering a phone - pick it up and say hello; Photocopying - place the sheet to be copied in the machine and press the green button, but she didn't know the difference between "been" and "being" when typing.

Anyway, thanks again for raising these issues. If you don't hear from me again you'll know I've hanged meself.
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Just because I depressed you doesn't mean that you can depress me back :tickedoff: And you didn't specify whether the poles were steel, wood, concrete or aluminium. Pleas be mor accriate in yor posts in fucher.
 
Frantic it really is depressing how the UK and other western countries have thrown their skill base out. As you know Birmingham used to be called the City of a Thousand Trades, and it was. Now it is just shopping and warehousing for the most part, and it is very difficult to find skilled workers, and small builders who give value for money. As we are getting older jobs Ray used to do maintaining the house are getting a bit too much and all the people we knew are of retirement age and the young ones boast they wouldn't get out of bed to do a job for X amount of money.
 
I think that half of the problem is that there are too many handouts in welfare countries. There is little incentive for young people to enter a trade when they can get paid every week for doing nothing. If they are getting paid, then send them to college or tech school to learn some REAL skills, not just how to answer a telephone. My son has just completed his Diploma in IT which took three years, full time. He was on unemployment benefits before that. When he went to college, his benefit was reduced ??? ??? So....at college, he has to travel 50 miles per day, and has to buy books etc, so the government in it's infinite wisdom, takes some money off him to make his life easier and make him 'feel good' about getting a qualification. What 'No Brainer' worked that policy out ??? ??? If we hadn't supported him (financially and morally), he would not have been able to do it, but it's not about us being supportive parents.......it's about the government being UN-supportive.
Another alternative is to pay companies the equivalent of the 'Dole' as an incentive to employ an apprentice or trainee. Most companies these days wont take on apprentices as they are a liability, and in most cases they don't get a return on their investment in the long run. All I believe is that it is going to take a MASSIVE turn around in government thinking (yes, I know that 'government thinking' is an oxymoron) in order to turn things around. I'm sure that it will get worse before it gets better though.

Now you can go and slash your wrists Paul. O0
 
Globalisation of sourcing and manufacturing is not something that has happened overnight. It's been creeping in for years. Just the other day I was looking at a hair dryer with the name Philips on it, that we had bought 10 or 15 years ago and on the manufacturers label was noted that China was the country of origin. Multinationals seek out the cheapest source of supply and it is not going to be places like Birmingham anymore. I'm afraid that this future has been with us for many years now and it can not change. Manufacturing companies were faced with the decision of either jumping on the band wagon or going under. There is a book out there that reputedly explains this phenomena...It's A Flat World... have not read it yet but saw it talked about on Charlie Rose. The repercussions are going to be felt in Places like Birmingham more than elsware. The home of the industrial revolution, for better or worse. The hot bed that propelled Great Britain into a world power with consequences that were not all good. The benefits of being a world power did not filter down much to the factory workers of the time living in hovels in the most polluted place on earth. It might be noted that Birmingham and like places have lost this reputation now. Cities in China have taken up this mantle. For us Globalisation is by it's definition world wide in nature. The people of the USA are feeling the consequences as much or more than others anywhere. Industry is moving away except for scientific and specialised niche's. Areas where governmental self interest's are concerned. The positive side of this is that the price of consumer goods for the near future should be kept in check, which is important for retirees living on reduced income. An ever growing section of the voting public.

  Countries like Canada are insulated from this because of the riches from exporting raw materials of which it has many. Even now monetary surpluses are being accrued. On the manufacturing front however the same pressures are being felt. For my own part I notice that smaller towns that had an industrial base in Ontario, have now seemingly become retirement centres. There is a big demand in these towns for doctors who specialise in the treatment of the elderly. House building has been a labour demand industry in recent years but there seems to be a slowdown on the horizon. This could cause a big problem; exporting lumber to the States and building houses here.

  I doubt that anyone knows where this is all going to end up. In the interim period there should be opportunities in the service industries for employment. Personally if I were starting all over again, wouldn't that be nice, I would like to be building houses. Going on from there to self employment in heating and ventilating and electrical work. Jennyann pointed out that the workers on the Olympic site were mostly young. Well thats good. Building houses is more a physical occupation than a technical one unless one has aspirations to be an architect. The skills can be quickly learned and polished on the job after training at school. Yes I can see myself with my toolbox straddling the bed of my pick-up truck and no one to boss me around. A big add in the yellow pages 'Let Rupert Put A Roof Over Your Head'. Get up on that ledge cat.

 

 
 
Some nice mortice joints on those gallows Paul, and you obviously have a diploma in knot tying as well.
 
I know these posts are old, but being new to the site I'm seeing them for the first time.
I'm a signwriter and have been all my working life, but now computers are taking over, which in one way is a good thing for me.
I'm glad I don't have to write a long line of 1" letters
or paint 20 vehicles all the same, I can now concentrate on doing the jobs computers still cannot do-ie; coats of arms,
and pictorial work.
I did say at one time I would never have a computer-I now have 2 and a laptop, 2 scanners, and 7 digital cameras, I do all my designing on the computer, but still render it by hand on the finished job.
I can still do a mortice and tenon joint and make anything in wood.
By the way I went to Moseley Art School and did 10 years apprenticeship earning only £9 per week at the end of it-I can now charge £50 per hour for my services.
 
Alfred Herberts of Coventry worldwide known as M/C Tool makers would pre WW2 when an apprentice reached the end of his "time" would sack him and tell him to go and gain some experience elswhere they had no trouble getting a job because they had been so well trained, Herberts would always take them back after a few years.
 
john knight said:
By the way I went to Moseley Art School and did 10 years apprenticeship earning only £9 per week at the end of it-I can now charge £50 per hour for my services.
Click to expand...

Too cheap John, much too cheap. They charge that much for labourers today.

Phil
 
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