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Kirby family (between 1891 and 1911)

R

Ryan

Guest
I have only recently started to research my family and with the help of the 1911 census have found that my Great Grandfather James Kirby and his brother John Kirby spent time in Winson Green Prison.

It would appear (waiting for confirmation) that they both had been in trouble with the police before 1911 and in fact my Great Great Granfather and Mother (Eliza) had been involved in one of the incidents (a family row that involved neighbours and then the police).

Does anyone have any knowledge of the family? I can add that my Great Great Grand parents were Fishmongers and had shops on Smallbrook Street and Broad Street. My Great Grand mother (Annie) was living in York Terrace (off Barnbell Road) and Johns wife (Emily) on Cope Street.

I would also like to hear from those that can describe conditions in Winson Green around 1911.
 
hi ryan
there as been a many threads on your kirby family on this forum
i hope you do not mind me asking but are you the son of timony kirby
and had the business in speedwell rd ? ,
because i know a fair bit about the kirby family if you are
given my age you are possibly the second or third generation with in the kirbys family if from winson green area
regarding the winson green prison in the year of you was asking
it was not like it used to be by todays standards of what you hear
it was very strict envoiroment
and it was bread and water and you was locked in a cell sewing
mail bags the lighting was very poor towards the end of the day
you had no privlidges you got excersised if you was lucky
and you would have had to walk ten paces apart from each other
and no talking whilst walking around in a circle
behind each other other wise you would get reported to the govener
and you would have to stay in your cell
it was very dark and dingy and very smellie especial of urine
from what they call slopping out where they all would walk out one by one and tip it down the sink and that was carried out through out the prison
twice a day , first thing in the morning and late evening for the night
the whole place smelt badly through out the prison
even when you went to visit a prisoner once you stepped through that gate you would have said to your self , oh my god , let me ou
if you think about it these poor prison officiers are actualy doing time them selfs because they are away from there familys week in week out
so they themselves would be suffering inhumane problems they was
as the prison officiers
if there was a hanging of prisoners the who;le prison would fall silent
there would have had people sitting theredeep in thought
wondering what was going on
they had no time of day to recollect and they would be wondering what time of day is it you may have got a prison officer whom may have passed the word to another prisoner that the person as been executed
they could never wear any jewerly wedding rings completely stripped
of all dignitys no rights whats so ever
it was a complete night mare if you went into prison in those days
for crime you would be wearing a grey uniform ,and in those
days they sent people whom had a debt of some kind to prison as well
they would wear brown uniforms
they are the civil debters and only in there for a short time
but now its all changed they do not send you toprison for debt
unless you fiddle the dhssnow its druggies sex cases and the
poor mentaly handicapped which should not happen to them
thats why they are bursting at the seams
conditions was really appalling
well ryan i think i will shut up now but i will dig one or two things out
i think i have got a very early picture of jacks lorry
any way i will be back
best wishes astonian ;;;;
 
Thanks for the info on MG Prison.

I cant say that I know of Timothy/Timony Kirby although I cant say we are not related as all children to James and Eliza appear to have had several children (James jnr 7 and John 8 or so). Chances are that there is a connection. My early family connections are found around Snow Hill and then Hurst Street (lower). There isa strong connection to Fish sales and fish eating places (a chip shop I guess).

Do you have any idea if there is likely to be records on either James or John in Winson Green and if yes where would they be now? I guess that the chances of finding the typical police record photo would be asking too much.

Cheers Ryan
 
hi ryan
the person named tim is one of the younger members of the family compared to your gret great grand parents
there was one member of the kirby family whom was a police officier but
he emigrated and it became a joke about the kirby family as to what they got up to
they think he got embarresd by the other generation towards the constablery
and there was member of the kirby family whom took all the rapp for the other kirby brothers whom did committ crime but they looked after his kids and wife
whilst he done the stretch for a long time
and i think john was older than this james when you mentioned cope street
it comes to my mind that this john i did meet
and yes you are related some-where along the road and the kirbys younger
generation came from the winson green later on in life
the older generation like albert ,stan and the sister and john and there is a rake more of them i am trying to recall from my memory and of course jimmy,
its been ni on forty years at least i had contact with the kirby boys if not more
so you will have to bear with me
we may be able to track down the record but you will not get a pic ;of them
on record you are asking for a million dollars, as good as
the very old coppers have gone pass the life, i downt whether ther would be a copper alive today especial with the older generation of your family whom would be around to recall themin there prime of early years yes they did have a fish busines
but like most they went down the pan and as they got older they had to turn there hand to some-think else if you keep persuenig you will find i am right what i am
telling you and you will find more out as you go on
i will try and speak with my younger brother whom lives in tamworth
he used to work with the kirbys you do know that jack is john
and i lived around the block of cope street thats got me tingling now
sorry i cannot say no more at this stage but i will come back i promise
best wishes astonian ;;;;
 
Astonian

If the Jimmy you refer to is a member of my family the its my uncle. The exisitng members are Kenny, Jimmy and Sidney (goes by Derek and my Dad). My Aunt Beryl is no longer with us (she was wonderful). My Grandad (son of James the criminal) was Albert Sidney Kirby (not sure which name he went by. In Nile Terrace (York Terrace) off Bell Barn Road, Ladywood James immediate family were Annie (wife), Annie Daughter, James son, Leonard, Arthur (my Grandad), Ivy, Doris, Horace.

John Kirby's family in Cope Street (If im right) were: Emily Alice (wife) Kids: John, Thomas, Walter, Rosey, Violet.

Do any of them ring a bell?
 
hi ryan
case concluded yes i knew them albert was the man also jimmy john
kenny abit wild and your uncle
and all the gang, i have to say they all had a heart of gold
reading between the linesi just knew you was one of the generations
and when you said cope street that definately clinch it for me
jimmy and the gang bought a yard a builders yard in ladywood
from a builder by the name of wakelings
which was on the same block as ours of cope street
wakelins was in springfield st ladywood as cope street
the yard was in king edwards rd which was set into to halfs
the yard was serperated by a rd called monument rd across the other side of it was the big king edwards rd and thats where the other kirby member lived
whom served there time in gaol if and when the old bill nabbed them for any think he would do the time not albert or jimmy
they would bring lorry,es all times of day or night to the yard
which had been releaved from some-where if you get my drift
yes they did have a couple of business at one time but we are going back a long time they was very thoughtful to my dear old mother
whom lived across the rd from them facing the yard
as i said my younger brother worked or helped them out if you like
we did not have alot , well especialy my old lady when our dad died
they kindly if you liked looked or helped them out
i knew reading between the lines you was connected
your grt , grt grand father lived in hockley by my auntie winn
he was a copper at summer lane police station
my relatitives are all connect to law
my grand father was a police officericer and the other one was a judge
but any way its nice to know i was right
there is the youger generation of the kirbys now
as you can imagine i am getting on in life now so it was a long time ago
but i can recall alot of things as i have previously said i am sure i have a pics of there first lorry in lady wood standing outside here yard
ryan its abit late now for me so i will hang off here for now and i will get back to you soon best wishes astonian ;;
 
hi,

i am researching my family tree and i have connections to kirbys...i wondered if you had gone back to around the 1800's yet with your ancesters?

my ancester sarah batsford nee wincott married joseph kirby b:1809-1882,they went on to have children thomas,caroline,mary,hannah.thomas went on to marry:
sarah tomkinson and have children thomas joseph,henry john,charles arthur,walter ernest,sidney ebernezer...he and his family lived in aston,in 1881 he was a baker?son charles arthur went on to marry clara and have children nellie,clara,doris,charles,arthur..they lived sutton coldfield,aston and i believe him and his brothers were builders?so much so charles named his house "wincott" after his nan?

does any of this sound familiar or is there any connection?i'm dying to know more of this part of my tree...

thanks for any help

sam x
https://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/5128920/person/-44685075
 
hi wincott
your albert and annie the wife later in there life
along with the other brothers ,a builders yard from wakefields the builders and painters and decorators from spring field st ladywood the yard they purchased was around the corner
from wakefields office ;it was in king edwards rd lady wood
and they was directly across the rd from our house facing
we used to make themtea daily ; or should i say my mother did
james kirby ;[jimmy ] the senior one the old man used to be the head barman at the windmill pub opersite the dudley rd hospital as it was then but now they call it the city hospital was the grand dad
great bloke ; and if my memory was serves me right it was jack whom used to do the time for the family and years later there was a big fall out with his brothers over not looking after is family whilst
a picture some where which was in a book called ladywood
and i think i may have a little pictur ofit but i cannot remember if i hadput it onsite acouple of years ago
and becausethe change over of ownership of this forum
i don,t know they have got it the files somewhere
i know there was one or two of the what i call the third generationhave been up to tricks that landed them in the soup
meaning clink for variuos things during the 70,s
and some of the older generation have as well
there is another part of the kirbys whom have got a sister ilean
she was getting on abit
there great grand dad from ford st or was it farm st was a copper
alot of people from the old generation of mobsters said he must havebeen bent in turning a blind eye to his famiy
but the decent half of the mobsters [ which i will not go into ]
said he was a straight as a die and they embaressed him and thats why he emigrated
tom was one of the third or forth generation and i thik it was this irene whomwas working the yard with the senior ones
along with jack albert stan and i recal was sid and old guy
by the way there is a pictur ofthere first wagon they boughtin kingedwards rd it was threemonthslater they bought that yard they got there lorry
well our kid i have to shoot off nowi have got to pick up the old dutchess will speak again soon
best wishes astonian ;;
 
The Fred Kirby who worked in the stores at BSA Tools, Kitts Green lived by The Glebe pub, his two Sons were convicted of the manslaughter of house owner in Handsworth while carrying out a burglary in his house and were sentenced to 7 or 15yrs? in prison they behaved well and saved a Warders life when he was threatened by crazed prisoner who was going to kill him, their sentences were reduced by several years as a reward, when they were released they led a law abiding lives, at first it looked as if they would accused of murder and if found guilty would have hanged. Len.
 
thanks everyone for such vast information...

i am only just starting with this part of my tree and wondered if anybody could connect the names given here with the ones i have...

thomas kirby b:1837 married sarah tomkinson they had children thomas joseph kirby b:1861,henry john b:1866,charles arthur b:1870,walter ernest b:1871,sidney ebernezer b:1877...obviously most/all these men would have gone on to have branches of family...but who and where are they now?
i know 1860's+ they were in birmingham and thomas snr was a baker...

henry john went on to marry mary ricketts and have children..jessie grace b:1892,elizabeth may b:1894,dorothy sarah b:1896,henry richard thomas b:1897,norman charles b:1900,percy frederick b:1905,e mary b:1907,marjorie b:1910...what happened to these people and their children etc...?

henry richard thomas married doris perks and had child norman ronald kirby b:1919...(was doris' family related to broseley shropshire at all?) what happened to norman and his family?

can anyone connect the people they talk of in these threads to the people i know of?

thanks sam xx
 
when i lived in kingedwards rd as i have previously stated
i have found a picture of the house and directly oppersite is the kirby yard
and in that yard was albert stan jimmy colin ;there sister irene they was all kirbys
and on that picture on the right hand side you will see there first lorry r van they bought up from farm st after three months of being there my mother used to make them tea whilst they was gettingit together
they had regular visits from the old bill day and night there was another kirby on theother sde of king edwards rd but they fell out with him for some-reason or another
and to be truthful they short changed himand is famly they hafd a big bust up in the street
there was the one i forgot to mentioning was jimmy the young one whom also worked in the
yard . later in life jimmy and a son ran there oen business in speedwellrd haymills
next to the well known mob of broadhursts whom the kirby gang and broad hursts was one and they socialied together i am going to try and down load this pic of the kirby van; our house ; and the morris minor by the lamp post was my oldest sisters boyfriend at the time and later became her husband whom sadly passed away last year
so here goes the kirby van ;;
 
Hi, Alice Kirby was my Grandads mom, her parents were James and Eliza Kirby, they all were connected to or ran fish shops. I have some pictures of the family and would be very interested in any stories you have as I have never heard any, sounds interesting!!
 
Hi,

Your pictures relate to my family and I have some interesting news and paper clippings.

Can we make contact?

Ryan Kirby
 
Ryan said:
Thanks for the info on MG Prison.

I cant say that I know of Timothy/Timony Kirby although I cant say we are not related as all children to James and Eliza appear to have had several children (James jnr 7 and John 8 or so). Chances are that there is a connection. My early family connections are found around Snow Hill and then Hurst Street (lower). There isa strong connection to Fish sales and fish eating places (a chip shop I guess).

Do you have any idea if there is likely to be records on either James or John in Winson Green and if yes where would they be now? I guess that the chances of finding the typical police record photo would be asking too much.

Cheers Ryan
Click to expand...
If james kirby is your great grandad we are related, as he's my grandad.
 
Dechasjay said:
Hi, Alice Kirby was my Grandads mom, her parents were James and Eliza Kirby, they all were connected to or ran fish shops. I have some pictures of the family and would be very interested in any stories you have as I have never heard any, sounds interesting!!
Click to expand...
We are related ,my grandad was james kirby, owner of the chip shop.
 
Dechasjay said:
Hi, Alice Kirby was my Grandads mom, her parents were James and Eliza Kirby, they all were connected to or ran fish shops. I have some pictures of the family and would be very interested in any stories you have as I have never heard any, sounds interesting!!
Click to expand...
Would you know if they had a son called harold and daughter named Doris.
 
Hi Jackie,

I guess your a generation up from me as my Grandad was Arthur Kirby, son of James (jnr). His father also James and married to Eliza was also in the 'chippy' trade. If this is the case then lets make contact.
 
RyanK said:
Hi Jackie,

I guess your a generation up from me as my Grandad was Arthur Kirby, son of James (jnr). His father also James and married to Eliza was also in the 'chippy' trade. If this is the case then lets make contact.
Click to expand...
Yea sounds good,
 
All I really know is my grandad was james married to Eliza, my dad was harold and his sister Doris. Hope we can help each other, I know my great uncles were jack and Bert, they were boxers.
 
I have only focused on James and John Kirby (sons of Eliza and John) as they have colourful profiles. I cannot remember the names of the other children. My Dad believes that we are not connected to the boxing side, however it sounds like they were brothers of the older James (married to Eliza). I'm connected to another girl who is connected to James and Eliza through their daughter Alice. She has provided me with a picture of Eliza. I must warn you it's not a pretty sight.
 
RyanK said:
My number is Send me a text and we can have a quick chat.
By the way, who is your father?
Click to expand...
Not a good idea to put emails or mobile numbers like this. Use the "conversation" button as then it is private between you and the other person. To access it click on the person's name on their Avatar (picture on the left) and then "start a conversation".
Janice
 
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im connected to a kirby family through jane kirby who married john goodenough in 1858 in aston is there any connection ?
 
Hi Jackie yes not so long ago i did mentionion the kirbys family on another site about the kirbys
reagarding john but they call a person by the name of jack and bert kirby whom i missed out on the listing of kirbys yard
which was in kingedwards road ladywood that they was in boxing in the old days meaning there younger days
It was bert i think i left of the nameing because it was late in the evening and i just could not recall his name , thanks for that because
Bert was the one i missed out when trying to recall them from memory of visual rememberence yes he was a boxer in true life
best wishes Astonian,,,
 
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