• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
  • HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
    Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
    im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
    we are now using a backup solution

Castle Site Near Camden St

Thanks Carolina. Hockley Abbey is much further north than the Camden Road site we've been discussing. So that's helpful, in that it rules out the Hockley Abbey site as being the location of our building. Also, the 'Abbey' although not a real abbey is made to look like one with its arched windows, ivy clambering all over it as a ruined abbey would look etc. This design is far from 'castle' - like.

Caroline's map shows Birmingham Heath, which I think in the 13/14th centuries was hunting ground. I don't think it was suitable for farming. So if the 'castle' building was around Camden Road it probably wasn't built there for the value of its land but more to do with proximity to key trade routes, hunting game and possibly defence. And given the earlier de Birmingham family's keen interest in developing trade in Birmingham itself (Bull Ring etc) I'd guess that movement of goods was an overriding decision in deciding the location of the building. All guesswork again, but worth thinking about in the context of our elusive 'castle'. Viv.
 
Thanks Janice. Yes I think Sandpits looks like it's roughly in the area we've been considering. Although I'm not entirely sure which side of Icknield St Sandpits is. I think Hutton suggested the building was 'near' to Sandpits, so if Sandpits is/was east of Ickniekd St that fits with what we've been looking into.

I've also been looking at this conjectural map of the extent of the Manor of Birmingham on the bgfl site. I think just below the label "Warstone Woods" is about the position. It would have been on a line south of Little Hockley Pool - the pool above Warstone Woods - and probably the source of water supplying the 'castle' moat. I've also read on the bgfl site that the square moat outline was still supposed to be visible into the 1780s. Viv.


image.jpeg
 
Vivienne14 said:
In terms of who might have inherited the 'Worstone' building after the death of Sir Thomas de B the following info might be useful:
Sir Thomas had a daughter - I think the only child- called Elizabeth, who married Sir Thomas DeLaRoche in 1392, at age 19. (Elizabeth was born circa 1379 in Birmingham). Elizabeth and Sir Thomas DeLaRoche had 2 daughters: Ellen de Ferres (born DeLaRoche) and one other child, details unknown. Sir Thomas DeLaRoche passed away in 1440, at age 67.

Viv.
Click to expand...
Thomas second grandaughter was Elizabeth, she married George Longeville, Lord Dudley - he of Castle fame!!
 
I put a link to Google eBooks in this section of the Forum. It is a stroll round the city
in the 19th century, it backs up what has already been discussed, that the castle, built in the 14th century by Thomas de Birmingham, stood in fields to the left of Warstone Lane. That won't have any arguments from us will it!! Before reaching that point in the walk the writer
mentions the large heath 7 miles away in Sutton, not known by many of the inhabitants of Birmingham.
 
image.jpeg image.jpeg
OK folks. Thinking caps on. Anyone know what this feature is (below my red dot) ? Its not labelled on this 1831 map. And it seems to be in the middle of nowhere, except for the Lodge to the west of it. Could it be ruins ? Could it be moated ruins - note square around it? I'm also attaching the wider area so you can see it in the context of what we've been discussing. Sorry for the poor quality image. Viv.
 
And on the 1834 map is this the same feature (by my red dot) ? The building seems to be contained within footpaths on three sides or would that be a water course/stream ? Viv.

image.jpeg
 
Viv
surely this is the building marked "Lodge " in the 1814 OS original drawing mentioned prviously

map_around_icknield_st_1814.jpg
 
According to the book Caroline linked us to the writer mentions the castle or mansion and then says he turned right at the Forrest Brewery so the feature you marked has to be in the right area!! He also mentions river from the moat flowing into Hockley Pool.

Janice
 
Hi Mike, thats what I thought initially. But if you look at the 1831 map 'Lodge' has a mark to its left. I think that might have been a separate building. The 'Lodge' label is nearer the little mark to its left, than it is to the building to its right. If we could find any references to this 'Lodge' that might help us to eliminate it. I think the striking thing about the seemingly 'unmarked' building on the 1831 map is that it is surrounded by something square. Now that could just be a wall. But it could equally be a moat/ ditch. Viv.
 
Just had a thought. Hutton said in his History of Birmingham (first edition 1783 ?) that the site/pasture was about to be built on. Anyone any ideas of buildings that would have been built in the general area at that time? Viv.
 
hi viv ive got huttons book in front of me...where does he say that..what heading is it under..saves me going through the whole lot lol
 
Vivienne14 said:
View attachment 105790 View attachment 105789
OK folks. Thinking caps on. Anyone know what this feature is (below my red dot) ? Its not labelled on this 1831 map. And it seems to be in the middle of nowhere, except for the Lodge to the west of it. Could it be ruins ? Could it be moated ruins - note square around it? I'm also attaching the wider area so you can see it in the context of what we've been discussing. Sorry for the poor quality image. Viv.
Click to expand...
I think it's possible that the square building is our Castle. It seems to be in the spot described
on the walk, i.e left of Warstone and close to Birmingham Heath. We need an old map that is
surely tucked away soomewhere. Shame Ordnance Survey was a few hundred years too late!!
 
Last edited:
I am going to be in Birmingham in June. On the 9th I've got a spare morning when I'll go to the Library and have a look at the Thomas de Birmingham Papers that they they hold. I'll also talk to the staff, they are great and they will know if there is anything more that will help locate the Castle.

That is of course unless anyone else has plans to do the search. I will need to book it, so maybe I will do that next week if I don't hear more.
 
Sorry Lyn got my references mixed up. Had meant to say the reference about the site 'about to be built upon' comes from 'Notes & Queries' page #271. The article makes reference to Hutton's suggested location and it is the writer of the N&Q article that suggests the site was about to be built upon. So the building, whatever it might be, would be dated around 1852 as that edition of N&Q was issued on 20 March 1852.

The second reference I was going to post (but forgot!) is actually from Hutton's 1783 History of Birmingham where he speculates about the location of Roman 'stations' (which I presume are small forts or posts). He suggests Wor-ston as the most likely place for one and also mentions the possible later conversion by a brother of Birmingham into a fashionable moat and castle. See extract below - it's from the section on Icknield Street (Ikenield Street). Viv.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    64.3 KB · Views: 6
I think the "stations" were camps (which could be of various sizes) separated by the distance a soldier could be expected to walk in 1 day.
 
Thanks Di, that's very kind of you. If you (or anyone else) comes across any useful references to National Archives records, I'm also happy to pop into NA Kew to have a look. Wonder if they hold any earlier maps ? Viv.
 
Viv
If you search for Hockley maps on the archives website, a number of references come up which MIGHT be of interest, but all are housed in the Birmingham Archives. As I do not live in Brum it will be difficult for me to view, though I will try at some time. In case anyone else is likely to be going the following are the references:


Plan of land atHockleybounded byHockleyBrook, Summer Lane, Constitution Hill, Great Hampton Street andHockleyHill.
PLANS OF ESTATES IN BIRMINGHAM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE, SHROPSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE, 1788-1920. COLMORE ESTATES - BIRMINGHAM.HOCKLEYESTATE. Plan of land atHockleybounded byHockleyBrook, Summer Lane, Constitution Hill, Great Hampton Street andHockleyHill.


Held by:

Birmingham: Archives, Heritage and Photography Service

Date:

1828

Reference:

MS 3375/411586




Plan ofHockleyFarm.
PLANS OF ESTATES IN BIRMINGHAM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE, SHROPSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE, 1788-1920. COLMORE ESTATES - BIRMINGHAM.HOCKLEYESTATE. Plan ofHockleyFarm.


Held by:

Birmingham: Archives, Heritage and Photography Service

Date:

1790

Reference:

MS 3375/411582 A




Plan of Unket's Farm atHockley
PLANS OF ESTATES IN BIRMINGHAM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE, SHROPSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE, 1788-1920. COLMORE ESTATES - BIRMINGHAM.HOCKLEYESTATE. Plan of Unket's Farm atHockley


Held by:

Birmingham: Archives, Heritage and Photography Service

Date:

1809

Reference:

MS 3375/411583




Plan of part of estate in Birmingham, belonging to L Colmore, Esqr.
PLANS OF ESTATES IN BIRMINGHAM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE, SHROPSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE, 1788-1920. COLMORE ESTATES - BIRMINGHAM.HOCKLEYESTATE. Plan of part of estate in Birmingham, belonging to L Colmore, Esqr.


Held by:

Birmingham: Archives, Heritage and Photography Service

Date:

1800

Reference:

MS 3375/411582 B



Plan of part of the estate of L Colmore, Esqr in the occupation of J...
PLANS OF ESTATES IN BIRMINGHAM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE, SHROPSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE, 1788-1920. COLMORE ESTATES - BIRMINGHAM.HOCKLEYESTATE. Plan of part of the estate of L Colmore, Esqr in the occupation of J Vize adjoining the turnpike road from Wolverhampton to Birmingham


Held by:

Birmingham: Archives, Heritage and Photography Service

Date:

1804

Reference:

MS 3375/411582 I



Sketch of land adjoining the turnpike road from B'ham to W'hampton
PLANS OF ESTATES IN BIRMINGHAM, GLOUCESTERSHIRE, SHROPSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE, 1788-1920. COLMORE ESTATES - BIRMINGHAM.HOCKLEYESTATE. Sketch of land adjoining the turnpike road from B'ham to W'hampton


Held by:

Birmingham: Archives, Heritage and Photography Service

Date:

1830

Reference:

MS 3375/411587 B
 
thank viv..mike and di..well what a mystery this is turning out to be...i keep reading all the posts on this thread in the hopes i may get a flash of inspiration but nothing lol..not totally convinced there was a castle as we would think of them...we have no maps showing ruins..no sketches or drawings etc and hutton himself did not actually see an intact castle we are just going on what his eyes interpreted the ruins to be so it could be it was just a fortified dwelling with a moat around it...di if you get to the library before i can make it i still think they may hold the key to all of this this...but as always with no concrete evidence as yet i am keeping an open mind..

lyn
 
Last edited:
Having slept on this, it's possible of course that if the 'Lodge' on the 1830s maps is, as Mike suggested, referring to the building surrounded by square walls/moat/ditch, the 'Lodge' might have been built over the medieval 'castle' (or even have used some of the former building in its construction).

So in summary, here are the possibilities and some further questions, in date order and all still speculation of course:

(a) remains of a Roman station/camp (and ditch?) - in close proximity/linked to Roman Icknield/Ikenield Street. Site possibly 'converted' at a later date by de Birmingham bother Hutton 1783 suggestion.

(b) remains of a medieval 'castle'/fortified house or manor, surrounded by a moat or ditch. (may not have been a castle as such but a building styled to look like one - fashionable at the time). Located in Wor-ston/Warstone, near Sandpits, had a moat fed by Chub- brook via Little Hockley Pool or moat might have been/become a dry ditch. Cleared land occupied by the 'castle' may have been built over in the 1850s (Notes & Queries 1852 suggestion)

(c) a 'lodge' shown on 1830s maps - was this built over former buildings (a) and/or (b)? A lodge might have been built here for hunting purposes (but built by whom? What date? And what was the name of the Lodge ?)

(d) what building was constructed on the cleared land following the suggestion by the 1852 Notes & Queries article that building was imminent?

Viv.
 
I have just found this on Sites and Monuments Birmingham City Council

1540 AD to 1750 AD Certain Inc. Hockley/Warstone & Sandpits hamlets, New Hall park & estate (since ca. 1600-20, sold 1746), corner of still open Birmingham Heath & (Little) Hockley Pool. Also inc. site of moated 'Warstone Castle' (recorded c. 1390).
 
Another reference to a Castle Carolina, I do love a good mystery.
I feel that there are so many references to a Castle there has to have been more than a fortified Manor House. Just have to keep digging.
 
Last edited:
I found this on Wikipedia, William is the first of the de Birminghams, in the 12th Century, but then read on.
William de Birmingham
[7] The first "definite" de Birmingham. Became enfeoffed of Birmingham in the reign of Henry I of England (1100–1135).[7]

Peter de Birmingham (Peter Fitz William?)
[7] William left Peter land of little value; Birmingham was one of the poorest manors in Warwickshire. There was little woodland and it was covered largely in scrub.

He applied to hold a cattle and food market every Thursday in the grounds of his "castle" and was granted the right by King Henry II in 1154 (some say 1166).[citation needed] He and his heirs were responsible for its jurisdiction.[7] Outsiders were charged to come to the market, encouraging many merchants to live within Birmingham town and hence to pay Peter rents that far exceeded the land's agricultural value. Birmingham became the most successful market in the whole of England. From a population of 50 people in 1086 the town grew to 1500 by 1300.[14]

In 1166 Peter is recorded to have owned a "castle" at Birmingham, to have been the Steward of Gervais Paganell and to have held nine Knight's fees by military service.[7] The "castle" is thought to have been the Birmingham Manor House - a fortified stone manor house surrounded by a circular moat and a range of outbuildings and was probably built in the 12th century. It was rebuilt in the 13th century and remained there until the 18th century. The moat has now been filled in and the house is now the site of the Bull Ring.[14]

Peter bore for his coat of arms:- azure, a bend lozenge, of five points, or.[12]
Just the last bit relevent to our search, but it all puts meat on the bones.
It could be the earlier fortified Manor House built by Peter, Thomas's ancestor, that is often referenced, giving rise to the confusion between the two buildings.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if the one quoted as Gervais Paganell is by Weoley Castle as both those names are road names within the area.
 
Carolina, the Cemetery didn't open until around 1848. It was the site of an old sand pit (quarry?) of around 9 acres. Key Hill was laid out as a cemetery about ten years before this.
This thread is so interesting!!
rosie.
 
Thanks Di and Carolina. The map is a conjectural map constructed in more modern times. The feature above Warstone Wood is Little Hockley Pool, but a stream from Little Hockley Pool (Chub-brook) was suggested as a source for water for the moat around the 'castle'. Viv.
 
A bit more info:
A wholesale brewery was established in the Hinckleys in 1752, but soon fell to decay; the publicans at that time brewing their own beer. In 1782 another was erected in Moseley Street. In 1784, a brewery was established in Warstone Lane, to furnish the town with porter in the London style; this is supplied by a small rivulet which once served to guard the castle. Hutton says, "the proprietor may be said to barrel up a river, and the inhabitants to swallow a stream, which run useless for ages."
 
Excellent info Carolina. Another quote specifically mentioning the 'castle' and the rivulet guarding the castle. It also points us to the 'castle' being in the vicinity of the brewery and both being downstream of the rivulet. Thanks. Viv.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top